NOTICE:

[xenologer]

LGBT activism isn't about creating more gay people; it's about supporting and advocating for the ones who're here. Still, atheist activism is framed (by people who aren't doing it) as evangelism. We don't care about converting you; we're just... out. Get over it.

Jeez.

Comments

Re: I wish this was true, because it's very well stated.

[virginia-fell.livejournal.com]

I think one of the problems with a lot of atheist rhetoric currently out there (at least the informal, SlashDiggDdit variety) is that it comes from the position that the arguments for atheism are not just persuasive, but so thoroughly, unquestionably correct that they can be used as common premises.

Could you clarify this for me? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Re: I wish this was true, because it's very well stated.

[count-fenring.livejournal.com]

It's hard to express.

I think a number of atheist arguments ignore that religious sentiment is, in fact, the majority position, and that its premise isn't experimental validity. Thus, when "there's no evidence for God" fails to convince the other person, they instantly denounce that person as irrational, because their premise is valueless. There's a lack of understanding that, from the religious person's perspective, their premises aren't valueless, and since they're not based on the idea that evidence is the final arbiter of truth, arguments based on lack of evidence aren't a killing word to them.

Note that I'm not saying that only atheists do this - there are tons of religious people who assume that their logic deriving from faith-based premises will trump atheist arguments.

Re: I wish this was true, because it's very well stated.

[virginia-fell.livejournal.com]

I think a number of atheist arguments ignore that religious sentiment is, in fact, the majority position, and that its premise isn't experimental validity.

I can't think of a polite way to ask this, but what universe are you in that the atheists you know have somehow managed to go a single day without awareness of these things? I'm a little surprised by this, because it sounds like it's coming from somebody who's heard more about atheists than from atheists, and that doesn't seem like you.

Also, for the millionth fucking time in my life that I have to make this point (and please understand that I am angry in general and don't hate you specifically or anything), just because theists don't understand the difference between calling a belief irrational and calling them irrational does not mean there isn't a difference, and it certainly doesn't make it the atheist's fault for not making it clear enough. There is no amount of clarity and fairness that will immunize criticism of religion from being taken as a personal attack, which means that constantly making it about how atheists are failing in their presentation is total bullshit, because there is no such thing as "good enough."

Re: I wish this was true, because it's very well stated.

[count-fenring.livejournal.com]

I honestly run into these arguments on a weekly basis on Slashdot, and rarely but not never in person. I do want to make it clear again that I'm not claiming this is the majority or even a large minority of atheists; but I run into it a LOT online, I'm guessing because of the "megaphone for crazy" factor of the internet.

My wife runs into it a lot in person, but she goes to a super-libertarian law school, so the well is somewhat poisoned as far as her environment goes.

It's not that theists don't understand the distinction, it's that the distinction doesn't prevent it from being offensive to them, just as the difference between someone saying "your atheism makes you immoral" and saying "atheism is an immoral stance" doesn't actually mitigate the impact on you.

I'm not saying that atheists should stop making the argument, or that if they played nicer, they would convince all the religious folks. What I'm trying to get across is that it's useless pretending that it's a polite stance to say "Religion is a mental disease" to the religious, any more than it would be to say "atheism is a failure of morals" to an atheist.