Sometimes I wish I were meaner to strangers.

[xenologer]

My quote of the day comes from the comments to TheFerrett's "But If I Can't Buy You A Coffee, How Will Our Species Reproduce?": How To Hit On Women

You can claim all you like that “it’s not about fucking.” But realistically, what you want is to talk, and get to know her, and go on a few dates, and make it a very intimate relationship…

…and then fuck.

And if fucking’s not a part of it, chances are extremely good that you’re going to feel like she’s wasted your time. Which makes you a liar. It’s like you’re saying, “Oh, no, going out to a restaurant’s not about the eating! It’s about the atmosphere, the good conversation, the experience.” But if you got the bill and went home hungry, you’d be ripped off.

The point is that yes, maybe fucking isn’t your primary intention, but it’s certainly well in the mix. And they know that. And you going up to them and dancing around your boner, going, “No, this is about getting to know each other! It’s about conversation!” is the kind of sad tactic that makes women not trust you. Because yeah. You want other stuff, but all that is stuff you could get elsewhere. You could have many fine friends who you don’t fuck. Instead, you’re lying about the friendship, and what you really want is the sex.

And there’s nothing wrong with that, except that you apparently feel that it is wrong. Most people want sex. But you, you’re going, “No, no, it’s more than that,” missing the point that since all of this camaraderie is going to be worthless WITHOUT the sex, you’ve pretty much made sex the core of it. That’s a scummy lie you’re telling yourself, and it’s doing you no favors, because chances are good women know what you’re really after, and are turned off by your dishonesty.

You say it’s not the first thing on your mind. But I’m willing to bet that if you’re straight, you don’t approach guys like this for fun conversations, or angst about it this much if they reject your hand in close friendship. That means that you’re lying to yourself, because really… it IS the first thing on your mind. You just are doing a little dance to pretend otherwise.

We really can tell.

Ferrett's replying to a guy who commented and seemed to be in denial about what he's really after when he talks to women. What Ferrett is pointing out is not that it's silly to try to get anything out of a woman but sex, but that it's bullshit to pretend that sex isn't the point when to everybody else it's obvious that it is.

So it's less, "Stop wanting things that aren't sex," and more, "Stop pretending you want to get to know her when you'll lose interest if she fails to put out. You are not subtle."

I've never been romantically involved with anybody I didn't consider a friend first. This is not to say that I wouldn't ever under any circumstances hook up with someone I didn't know, but after a lifetime of this shit I actually do sort of need my potential partners to demonstrate to me that my sole winning quality is not in the promise of getting a leg over.

If I think that you would see me as a pointless waste of time without the promise of sex, I personally am done with you as a human being.



I think at this point in my life I would seriously rather have a man come up to me and say, "Hey! I was just noticing how gorgeous you are. Are you looking to hook up with anyone tonight?" Then I can just say, "Nah." I would prefer this over the unmistakeable experience of a man talking to me because he's heard chicks like that and he's sure if he button-mashes enough he will figure out the combination to the supermove that takes off my pants.

If you can't figure out how to talk to women, you need to start with the small stuff and learn how to be friends with women. I don't mean circling around her ankles like a needy cat waiting for her to rub your penis belly; I mean actually figuring out a way for women to feel like you are a good friend to them, and don't do it for the sex. Do it because women are people to you and having female friends is nice. Seriously, though, don't make it about sex, even in your head.

Is this you? Do you have many female friends? If you even have to think, "Do I have many female friends?" you don't. If you don't have female friends, you are probably doing something fucked up that women notice and you don't and until that is resolved, you are not ready to chase us for booty.

I am not kidding.

If you can't befriend women, you'll be a shitty romantic partner and your ass is not ready.



And AGAIN friendship is not some kind of half-romance that needs to evolve into Real Romance. If you have female friends that you value completely apart from the question of getting your dick wet, you have already won. You don't need to do anything else to those relationships. They are already good.

I know you are thinking, "If I can just get them to be friends with me, our relationship will evolve and I will finally be repaid for my investment with the sex I have earned."

You are wrong. You are so wrong that you will ruin everything.


Or less. If it saves you time, I hate you now.

Comments

[eumelia]

Well said and Hear Hear!

I really wish these guys would stop pretending they're speaking for anyone other than they're own bloated ids pretending to be an egos. What a fucking douche, my god.

[xenologer]

Yeah, I'm so sick of dudes pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining, you know?

"No no I'm interested in you as a person," they say. "Oh! So you want to be friends? Because I'm not fucking you." "Oh! I, uh... you know, I gotta go. But hey good talk."

[eumelia]

So I love that metaphor, it's perfect.

I had to listen to a couple of guys the other day talk about "friend zoning". The kicker was that they're both gay and talking about het relationships. I wanted to punch them both, because wtf, you automatically take the other guy's position out of some sense of metaphorical dick loyalty?! (and misogyny, obviously).

[xenologer]

Ewwwww

I find misogyny from gay men to be pretty baffling and sad.

[eumelia]

I have found myself used to it, by now. Still enraging, but no longer surprising.

I mean, it's really okay not to like vaginas guys, but that really isn't all a woman is or even, you know, the freakin' point.

But the fact that there is this really appalling attitude towards sex and women as being goals to attain is just another form of objectification and rape culture and it's perpetuated accordingly. Grrr.

[xenologer]

Yeah. I feel like it's some kind of lingering vestige of patriarchal masculinity that is one of the last to go. Shave your whole body and cover yourself in oil and glitter and just be as camp as you can? Hell yeah! But be a man and don't let the chicks get too uppity all right?

For a group of people who get hit so hard and so relentlessly by misogyny, it's sad to see how little a lot of gay guys question it.

[tuzemi]

I ran into TheFerrett a long time ago, even before the "open-source boob project", so I generally refuse to read his posts since they tended to be "OMG look how awesome I am at being a liberal-sounding guy" and criticism was followed up with "so how many books do you have published?" But maybe he's had an epiphany since then, I don't know.

It sounds like from your tone that you are in strong disagreement with TheFerrett here. Am I reading you right?

[xenologer]

I think that the comment I chose gives a weird impression of the point he's trying to make if you don't read the entry it was posted to. You're not the first person to be like, "Soooo is he being a dick here?"

He's replying to a guy who commented and seemed to be in denial about what he's really after when he talks to women. What Ferrett is pointing out is not that it's silly to try to get anything out of a woman but sex, but that it's bullshit to pretend that sex isn't the point when to everybody else it's obvious that it is.

So it's less, "Stop wanting things that aren't sex," and more, "Stop pretending you want to get to know her when you'll lose interest if she fails to put out. You are not subtle."

I should probably edit the entry to make this clearer to people who don't click through.

[xenologer]

There. I actually just edited that in.

[elf]

On the flip side... I'm fine with being approached with the idea of "if this goes well, there'll be sex. If there's no chance of sex, maybe I could go somewhere else."

And dammit, if the guy is saying that "I'm not here for sex; I just want female friends", and worse, saying that to himself, then neither of us is likely to get sex out of the relationship, because Gah I Do Not Have Time to figure out which guys want female friends, which guys want to get laid but not by me, and which guys are actually interested in my body, when they're all saying the same damn things.

There *are* women who just want to get laid. Who think dinner-and-a-movie is a great way to have enough conversation to decide that a guy's not a psycho nor an idiot and she won't regret being intimate with him for a few hours or hey, if it works out, several weeks or months, yay. There are women who would *happily* jump into the sack with almost any reasonably socially-competent man--and that's not the same as "traditionally attractive"--who she believes won't cause her grief later.

So in that "dinner-and-movie" setup, she's looking for warning signs of stalker-ism, clingy angst, extreme jealousy, boundary issues, and obliviousness to her interests. She's *not* looking for great sexual prowess, high income level, extreme erudition, or romance in his soul. Maybe for a long-term relationship, but not for a weekend fling. She wants to get laid, just as much as he does.

And starting with "I'm only here for friendship, not looking for sex" is *NOT* the way to find her.

[xenologer]

Yeah, dudes need to be strong empowered men and ask for what they really need. That's the only reliable way to actually get it, particularly if it requires finding a like-minded individual.

[ngakmafaery]

...I'm so glad I am not in search of any kind of sexual relationship now, since the world seems even more puzzled and puzzling than it was when I was younger...I still can't get over the (hetero specifically: no experience with other types to comment on right now) friends-with-benefits things where somehow the woman is often made to feel "bad" or "wrong" if/when she develops feelings for some dude she's been screwing: I have read countless blogs and journals where the woman (never read the man doing it online yet)angsts and wangsts over it as if it is her being bad to have feelings, whereas to me, you're probably going to either feel YES or NO or EH if you have sexual contact with someone, and that's just a normal consequence, to feel something...*shrug*...we used to just call that "seeing someone", however complicated or one-nighty or dubious it was, and not pretend that it was 'just sort of friends but really there's sex but really there's denial about if there is sex when it's clearly right there' on some regular basis as a big mainstream structure or relationships...to address the above more specifically, I think it would be hard to find a decent partner in some cases if the person is just trying to act like they read they should online...! I agree completely that being fake in any way is a complete turn off, and raises suspicion since it feels not-exactly-clear...it's sad that a lot of folks just don't seem to know how to be real or sincere, or to KNOW who is being real or sincere or just trying to get laid or get money or whatever, and that can make life so crazy for everyone...

[charlycrash.livejournal.com]

I find it's just much nicer knowing someone for a while before you get involved with them. It makes it.. the first word that popped into my head was "warmer". If that makes any sense at all. It's really weird having sex with someone and it still feels kinda formal because you don't know them that well. Weird, and not very nice. It feels a bit like everything's been put in the wrong order.

I have female friends I've told I've fancied and they've told me they didn't really reciprocate and.. idk, you just go "Oh okay, that's cool" and then you're friends. I don't know why you'd want to fuck someone you wouldn't want to be friends with otherwise? I mean.. what's left when you remove that factor, really? I just don't think I could feel a sexual spark for someone I didn't feel like I could talk to for hours and not feel bored.

[charlycrash.livejournal.com]

Also, kind of irrelevant.. I keep thinking recently "maybe I should try and get more male friends". Practically all my friends are female, and literally every single one of my good friends is. Men feel a bit weird and alien to me.. I'm not sure why. I don't feel like I really understand them.

[e-mily.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing you have issues with patriarchal man-culture (from seeing you around her posts) which. Uh. Doesn't sound like the worst thing in the world.

Just gotta find other cool dudes that also do not particularly agree with patriarchal man-dude-bro-entitled-culture!

[charlycrash.livejournal.com]

Yeah, fairly huge ones, because I'm sick of both what it does to my friends and being called a faggot and threatened in the street. And just that whole culture of aggression and domination and coercion. I fucking hate it.

[e-mily.livejournal.com]

"Stop pretending you want to get to know her when you'll lose interest if she fails to put out. You are not subtle."

Ah yes, the stench of "fuck meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee."

No matter how cleverly hidden, we can always find it.

(seriously, though. If all you WANT is sex, and you can manage to not be a complete dickwad about it, there are people whose interests will match yours. Being honest* about it will go a long way toward helping that goal.

*other factors apply. IE sexual interest factors)

[keori.livejournal.com]

If all you WANT is sex, and you can manage to not be a complete dickwad about it, there are people whose interests will match yours.

This. It's called "Craigslist." It worked wonders for me when I was looking for a regular fuckbuddy who is a decent person and doesn't want a relationship. Took a few tries, but we managed to find one another and after over a year still meet each other regularly to knock boots. AND we manage to have friendly, intelligent conversation in the mix!

[inverarity.livejournal.com]

This is brilliant. I wish someone had beaten truth like this into me when I was younger and stupid(er).

[sorayuy.livejournal.com]

"he's sure if he button-mashes enough he will figure out the combination to the supermove that takes off my pants."

Or the combination of answering the right questions and doing the right things, for which I blame hentai dating games (which is a shame because there do exist a rare few that actually had moving stories that were a good bit more about the falling in love than about the bow-chicka-bow-wow.) I also blame our corporate overlords and their shadow cabinet of Rich Guys Who Really Pull All the Strings, for being the ones who want a slave labor class (that's right, I said it :P) they can exploit, so of -course- they need to push the idea of sex as much as they can through magazines, shows, and movies, how else can they get people to do their demeaning, soul-crushing work for them without having to move their businesses? :P

[gidster.livejournal.com]

Nicely stated. I love women. But I also respect and admire women. Any man that believes women exist only as vagina transports, are fractions of men.